Episode 35: Mary Carlomagno on Book Visibility

Mary Carlomagno is a publishing veteran with experience on all sides of the business including marketing positions at Barnes & Noble and Random House. She is a nationally recognized organizing expert and author whose books have appeared on the Oprah Winfrey Program, The Today Show, and CBS News.

Currently, she is the Director of Sales and Business Development for Bowker bringing their wealth of services to the traditional publisher market. She joins us on the BookSmarts Podcast to discuss how publishers can expand the visibility of their titles.

Follow Mary Carlomagno on LinkedIn to learn more about her work.

Transcript

Joshua Tallent 

Hello and welcome to the BookSmarts Podcast where we talk about publishing data and technologies and send you away with some insights that will help you sell more books. I’m your host, Joshua Tallent. This week on the BookSmarts podcast, I’m talking with Mary Carlomagno, who is a publishing veteran with experience on all sides of the business, including marketing positions at Barnes and Noble and Random House. She’s also a nationally recognized organizing expert, which I find really interesting, and has shown up on The Oprah Winfrey Show and The Today Show and CBS News. She’s currently the Director of Sales and Business development for Bowker bringing their wealth of services to the traditional publishing market. So Mary, thanks for joining me today.

Mary Carlomagno 

Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Joshua Tallent 

Yeah. But before we dive into some more interesting questions, I would like to just make sure everybody knows what Bowker does and who Bowker is. Can you give us just a brief elevator pitch for what Bowker does in the publishing industry?

Mary Carlomagno 

Absolutely. Everybody knows who the Bowker name is. Everybody knows that it begins with us. When you have that manuscript or that book, and you say, well, now what? What do I do with this? So we are the ISBN Agency, the Industry Standard Book Number agency, for the U.S. and its territories. So it all begins with us. If you want to have your book distributed and sold and brought to its readers, it needs the ISBN, and we are the place to start for that. So we’re a very well established and trusted brand in that business. We are the only game in town in the country. And we sell to Self Publishers, large publishers, university publishers, anybody who has a book that wants to distribute it here in the United States, and its territories,

Joshua Tallent 

Okay. And your position at Bowker, as the Director of Sales and Business Development, is new, right? They’ve been around for a long time, doing a lot of stuff, but this is a new thing. So what are you doing? Tell me about that position.

Mary Carlomagno

Sure. Well, I’ve been around for a long time, too. So Bowker and I have a lot in common. So the way that Bowker is structured is, of course, we’re the ISBN Agency. But in recent years, they’ve really developed this amazing set of products and services for all aspects of publishing a book. So the self-publishing author can come to us and say, I have this manuscript, I’m going to get the ISBN, and I’ll need a UPC code so I can carry it in a Barnes and Noble store. But what else can you do for me? Can we market it? Is it a book that maybe needed editing, or proofreading. We offer those kinds of services. We offer a service that is a platform that can get books to screen. We offer the author homepage, which is a really important thing for an author to have. Even independent of a large trade publisher, it’s very important to have an author homepage which is a website for your work. So we offer just an amazing array of services for that self-publishing world. In the recent months, we, as a company, have decided to go and try to look at some of those services, and see where and what of those services make sense for a traditional publisher. So we would say a publisher that’s publishing over 10 titles a year, up to your big five favorites, as well, there might be some services there that we could offer to those publishers that they could use as well.

Joshua Tallent 

Okay, so that’s a pretty big move, trying to take some of these things you guys been building and expand them out to a larger base. But this is also something we see a lot a lot of people doing right now, trying to help publishers really engage more in the landscape of publishing as it’s been changing over the last, you know, 15/20 years. Now, we’re starting to see things especially with marketing and the discoverability aspect of books is becoming more important. So how can authors or publishers make their books stand out? When you’re thinking about all the different, you know, the crowded marketplace we’re a part of, how do you make a book more visible? What are the key aspects of that?

Mary Carlomagno

I think it really begins online. You know, I’m a former Barnes and Noble bookseller. One might say, once you’re a Barnes and Noble bookseller, you’re always a Barnes and Noble bookseller. The key for the Barnes and Noble stores, which I learned really early, was you wanted to get the book into the readers hands, right? So if you think of the web as a gigantic bookstore, how do you differentiate your title from the hundreds and thousands of titles that are out there? Well, you want someone to engage with it, you want them to see it, you want them to sample a few pages, you want them to look at the cover. So I think online, it’s imperative that we recreate that kind of independent bookstore feeling by making the books more discoverable. And that can mean looking at a cover, having it on an author homepage, engaging with interviews and things that will really bring the book alive and bring it into the readers hands. So discoverability online can often be an easier thing to do, because of the tools that are now available.

Joshua Tallent 

Yeah, and that’s all based in data, right? We’re talking about, you know, when you’re talking about an author page or a website, or you’re talking about the product page on any of the retail sites that are out there, this is all based on what data you’re providing, you know, to those locations about the book or about the author, this makes metadata just that much more important. And we’re seeing some big changes in kind of how publishers are approaching that topic. It’s nice to see.

Mary Carlomagno

Absolutely, and you know better than anybody the quality of the data is essential as well, because that’s how you begin. So we’re a trusted brand for data. So when we do something, it is linked to the ISBN. And we can pull that good data that publishers and Self Publishers give us and bring it to other products. So I think the idea of keeping your data clean, updated, and, you know, moving with the fast times that we live in, to make sure that it is the right kind of data, I guess is the way I would say it. So yeah, that is an essential part of how we move through this world now, which is moving quicker than ever.

Joshua Tallent 

And Bowker has Books In Print as the kind of the master database of product data on your side. And that is a source for other locations as well, retailers will pull from that database. Can you tell us a little bit about if a publisher is wanting to expand their visibility for their books, and they’re thinking about their data, how does Bowker’s Books In Print system or the databases that you have you guys have, how does that help in that process?

Mary Carlomagno

Well, we created that some hundreds of years ago. I think R.R.Bowker’s, you know, thinking he’s walking around talking to Thoreau with his little books and grant because that was his contemporary. But yeah, that being the authoritative site for that, that is not a hardcopy book, that is actually online and that is where it all begins. That’s where we draw from. That’s where the bookstores draw from, as well. So we have a, you know, inherent checks and balance system that we have the authoritative knowledge of books in print. We can always go back, you know, and check to that as our true north. So having that kind of knowledge behind us, and that kind of clean data behind us, I think, can bring us to so many other places, because we start there.

Joshua Tallent 

Yeah. And if a publisher is sending you ONIX data on a regular basis, then that makes sure that you do have that authoritative source. So I assume you would recommend that publishers do that and ensure that the data is always up to date on your side because other places are pulling from your database?

Mary Carlomagno

Absolutely. And you know that that information can be updated. And that information can be shared easily. So I think that that’s the most important thing. And I think you probably see that publishers, big and small, are relying more on professionals to help them with their their data. It’s an area of the business that I had, you know, I sat on many sides of the table. It’s an area of the business that’s newer to me. But I’m coming into a place that really has established just a trusted brand on that data that you know it’s safe with us. We’ve been doing this for years. You know, you can trust us with it. There’s an expertise level here that has existed for many years.

Joshua Tallent 

Yeah. Okay, so a publisher is looking at Bowker and you’ve got all these new tools you’ve been building for authors. What are some of those tools that you think publishers might be able to benefit from, as they’re approaching marketing and making their books more visible?

Mary Carlomagno

Well, you know, the thing that I’m working on and really focusing on mostly is a look inside technology called Book2Look. And we partnered with bookshop.org on this program to offer it for free for the entire calendar year 2023. So we’re encouraging publishers of all sizes to take us up on that offer and add what we’re calling a “Biblet”, which is Look Inside technology that’s, I think, going to become an essential way that that every book should have this as an industry standard, just as you would have an ISBN, you would have a Biblet. So we’re trying to really, you know, increase adoption of the Biblet make it more of a natural thing that you automatically would have, again, adding discoverability, again, putting the book in the customers hands, recreating that independent bookstore feeling online. And as you know, bookshop.org has been instrumental in really helping the independent bookstores have tools, that maybe some of the other chains or larger online retailers have had as a natural thing. This creates an additional tool for bookshop.org, it helps the independents sell digitally. There’s many aspects of it that can be created to create, you know, a an independent bookstore community page where they might do a reading group with several books, there’s a lot of ways that these publisher dashboards, which I know you’re familiar with, can really help a publisher put out their books to their readers directly and give them the opportunity to Look Inside online. So that’s, I’m really excited about that. And we’re seeing a lot of adoption from University Presses from small presses. And we’ve talked to the larger companies, too, because it’s existing now on bookshop.org. But we will look to roll it out to other retailers. And we will look to make it an industry standard. And right now, since it’s free, with no strings attached, we’re hoping that we can get a lot of publishers on board with it.

Joshua Tallent 

That’s great. And that Book2Look widget then shows up on the bookshop.org site, that’s the final location where people would be able to see it?

Mary Carlomagno

That’s where it is now but publishers are encouraged to embed that Biblet into their newsletters onto their own websites, we just did a full integration with Johns Hopkins University that has our Biblet on their website with all of their books, and the University Presses are very interested in doing that. It’s a seamless integration, it’s very easy. We use ONIX data, we use Ingram core source, it’s very easy for the publishers to do. It’s not a lot of maintenance. So we’re seeing a lot of adoption there.

Joshua Tallent 

That’s great. And is that just, you know, a sample chapter two of the book or whatever piece you want to provide, I assume? And then is that something that the publisher just provides you with the EPUB file or the PDF of the book or something like that? And then your system automatically cuts it to the size that it needs to be? Or did they provide you with that specific size?

Mary Carlomagno

Everything you said it’s true, they can tell us which part of the book they want, or how much of the book they want. So I always joke because one of the samples I use is John Irving, and we use 10% of the John Irving book. And I had a publisher say to me, Oh, my goodness, it’s 90 pages! I said, Well, that’s 10% of a John Irving book. So you get a lot out of your Biblet if you’re John Irving. But they can tell us, you know, I had a Thomas Nelson publisher came to us with a very special media opportunity for a self-help author whose name is Kim Gravel. The book is called Collecting Confidence. She just wanted to include the introduction, which for a self-help book that, you know, is aiming to give concise advice, an introduction of four pages is the perfect amount to share for that book. So we were able to customize that, actually, to go along with the media opportunity that had come up for them on national television. So we’re able to kind of turn on a dime if something like that comes up.

Joshua Tallent 

That’s great. So you’re an author yourself, actually a very, very well regarded author and quite a background in personal organization, which I think is really great that you have this experience not just on the book publishing side and the industry, but also as an author. So as you’ve gone through your career, what’s been your most successful marketing tool?

Mary Carlomagno

I would probably say that anytime I’ve written in a publication magazine or newspaper that has gotten pick up, you know, you mentioned at the top of the show, sure, I’ve been on a lot of national TV. But anytime I’ve written and given actual content about how to do something, whether it’s, you know, a magazine article in Better Homes and Gardens or been quoted in Real Simple, those kinds of outreach to that very specific audience has really sold books for me. And I think that that’s something that can be done. Certainly with Book2Look, you can add reviews, you can add clips, you can do all those kinds of things. I think anything you can do across the web where you can kind of put your own DNA on it, it makes it have more of a customized feel for the reader. So I think those kinds of extensions that go a little bit beyond the book are meaningful.

Joshua Tallent 

Yeah. And that really requires knowing your audience too, being able to target what you’re saying, and how you’re saying and where you’re saying it to, you know, to the people that you know will actually be interested.

Mary Carlomagno

And it’s such an evolution compared to where I started in book publishing where, you know, I was doing marketing for Danielle Steel, which was like, super fun. But we were doing like billboards on highways, and, you know, New York Times full page ad of, you know, the latest book, and it was super fun and cool. But we didn’t have metrics, we didn’t know if that worked. I mean, we knew she was best selling. And I think sometimes publishers, you know, being on the marketing side, and publishing too, there’s a lot of like, we have to do this kind of mentality, when maybe we should really be doing something else. And I think that now with the idea of being able to really track things, and really see where you’re gonna find your audience, you see that with a lot of the genre publishing and, you know, a lot of the graphic design stuff, which I think is just major right now. That’s a group of people that’s really, I think, finding their audience in the right places, and marketing to them. And you don’t feel like you’re marketed to if it’s something you want. That’s an important thing to think about. So that’s kind of how we feel here is, you know, we want to give you the things you want. And my position is doing just that. I’m on a bit of a listening tour with the publishers. Well, we have these kinds of products but what kinds of things would you want us to do? Where are your pain points? How can we service this industry better? I think there’ll be a lot of changes down the road, and we want to be prepared for that.

Joshua Tallent

Yeah, that’s really good. So you’re seeing trends, I’m assuming.  What are some trends that you’re seeing recently that you think our listeners need to know about?

Mary Carlomagno

Well, I believe in this trend, and I’ve been waiting a long time for it. I think the bookstore is back. I think the rise of the independent bookstores is really important. I think that things tend to be very generational, especially in things like literature, because I think there are a lot of readers that are younger that we might not think about. And I think that those readers think about things that are important, like the independent stores. I think that they might want to choose to go to a local bookstore. But I think they also want the ability to choose online. So I think, you know, it’ll be interesting to see what Barnes and Noble does next. I feel like they’re in maybe a bit of a full circle moment and reinvention at the same time to see, you know, how their bookstores do. They’re starting to build stores again, which is interesting. But I really, you know, in my heart of hearts, this is personal. I really want to see the independent bookstores thrive and become a place to shop. And I think that the, you know, the data and the ability to reach more people online will hopefully rejuvenate that business as well.

Joshua Tallent 

Yeah, it’s great to see recent stats of like Millennials are buying more books and and we’re starting to see the opportunities come back for physical books for in-store buying, not everybody wants to buy everything online, we want that connection to the physical space. So that is an encouraging move.

Mary Carlomagno

It is I mean, when you’re reader, you’re reader, you know? You might listen to audio in your car, you might jump into the library if they have the new Barbara Kingsolver book there for you on hold. This is not a personal admission. Because I’ve been saying to myself, am I going to read Demon Copperhead this summer or is that really a fall book? So when you’re a reader, and you’ve been reading for life, you want all those kinds of offers, you want all those kinds of availability? I mean, it’s the idea of abundance and scarcity. And that’s just something that, you know, I’ve touched upon in my organizing career as well, you know, the world is an abundant place, this country is an abundant place, but sometimes we have a feeling of scarcity, when, in fact, we should feel like more is better. More choices are better.

Joshua Tallent 

Yeah. Well, Mary, I really appreciate your time and really appreciate you coming on the show. Could you tell people where they can follow you online and where they can follow the work you’re doing at Bowker?

Mary Carlomagno

Yes, absolutely. So I love LinkedIn. And I am always on LinkedIn. So it’s Mary Carlomagno. Follow me if you’re a publisher, reach out to me, I want to hear what you have to say. If you’re not a publisher, I still want to hear what you have to say. So hook up on LinkedIn all the time. I’m on Facebook, but that’s usually just my personal reading. And I tend sometimes to just, you know, talk about Hilary Mantel just for far too long. So if you’re into Hilary Mantel, you can check me out on Facebook.

Joshua Tallent 

Right. Sounds good. Well, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast this week. I really appreciate it. So that’s it for this episode of the BookSmarts Podcast. If you have feedback about the show, or you would like to, you know, give ideas or topic suggestions you can reach out to me at joshua@firebrandtech.com. And if you do us a favor and share this with your colleagues and friends, we really appreciate that. Thanks for joining us and getting smarter about your books.