Episode 45: Emily Lyman on Building Brand Trust

Emily Lyman is the CEO and Founder of Branch & Bramble, an award-winning digital marketing agency for lifestyle brands. With nearly a decade of experience helping companies achieve tangible marketing results, Emily joins us on the BookSmarts Podcast to discuss the role of empathetic marketing in publishing and the importance of building brand trust with consumers.

Emily will speaking about how to build brand trust at the upcoming inaugural Publishing Innovation Forum, September 24-26, in Nashville, TN! This conference is open to the entire publishing community and will focus on the many changes our industry has faced, and how to prepare and adapt for the future.

Follow Emily Lyman on LinkedIn! To learn more about Branch & Bramble, visit their website.

Joshua Tallent
So this week on the BookSmarts Podcast, I’m chatting with Emily Lyman. Emily is the CEO and founder of Branch and Bramble, which is an award winning marketing agency for lifestyle brands. Emily is also a speaker at the upcoming Publishing Innovation Forum, September 24 to 26th. She’s going to be talking at the forum about building brand trust, the role of empathetic marketing in publishing. So I wanted to get Emily’s thoughts on this, kind of a preview for some people, hopefully encourage you to come join us in Nashville. Thanks for joining me today. I really appreciate it.

Emily Lyman
Thank you, Joshua, for having me. I’m really very excited to be here.

Joshua Tallent
Yeah, it’s gonna be great. Okay, so we’re going to talk about brand trust. And I’d like, if we can, let’s just talk about what that means. Like if somebody’s coming at this from, “I work for a publishing house, I’m trying to be successful, what is brand trust? And how does that actually make a difference in your marketing?”

Emily Lyman
I love that we start there. It is essentially the level of confidence that consumers have in a brand’s ability to keep its promises. And these promises can include the quality of products or services, the brand’s values and mission, or how the brand treats its employees and its customers. There’s a lot of factors that go into brand trust. And what’s been fascinating as a marketer is to see the evolution of brand trust over the years and how it changes and how important it becomes not only to consumers as a whole, but we have some really interesting data on how brand trust is thought about generationally as well.

Joshua Tallent
That’s great. Yeah. So okay, so brand trust, I’m assuming that when you’re thinking about this, from a company’s perspective, it flows out of the values you have as an organization, core values that maybe you’ve developed as an organization, or maybe you haven’t developed. How does that get started? When you’re working with a company, how do you get started on thinking about brand trust internally before it even gets to the outside?

Emily Lyman
It’s a really good question and I think to take it one step back is the target that your company, your target consumer that your company is looking towards. And I’m going to say that, and then I’m going to have data that’s going to mess it up later on in this podcast. I’m throwing a curveball, essentially. But brand trust can mean I just said a lot of different things. And it used to just be this company makes a really good product. And I know it won’t break and it will last and etc, etc, etc. Or I know what I’m getting for the value of that of that product. It’s it’s, yeah, it’ll break in five years, but it’s the, you know, mid line, and I don’t have to pay a lot of money for it. Right. So it used to be that straight brand trust was like, what’s our product? How are we selling it? You know, etc. But as that changes, you mentioned company values. Company values now do start to play more and more of a role. And so essentially, companies in order to start with brand trust, they need to, yes, look at their own story, and their own values and what they want to put out into the world. But that’s only half of the puzzle. The second half is what are my target consumers looking for? What are their values? And how do our company values mesh and work with our consumer values? So it’s kind of a two parter.

Joshua Tallent
Yeah. Okay. So in a sense, what you’re saying too, is the brand trust is changing. How we address brand trust in today’s marketplace, it’s maybe different than the way it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. So what’s different now? How is that changing in the minds of consumers?

Emily Lyman
Well, I’m gonna take it, you know, we’ll get a little bit into the generational divide, but I’m gonna throw some stats in the fact that yes, brand trust is more important than ever. So 84% of people globally report the need to share values with a brand to use it right so this essentially means hey, if if I believe in clean water, I want the brand that I use for my my home goods, my consumer packaged goods, etc, to also care about clean water, and then to throw that monkey wrench. Gen Z actually takes it a step further, and nearly six in 10 of Gen Z feel a connection with people who use the same brands that they do. So there’s there’s a lot there.

Joshua Tallent
Okay, so talking about how Gen Z really works. What about influencers? Like there’s obviously a big push in social media to use influencers or to think of. Is that helpful? Does that help with brand trust? Is that something that whether it’s Gen Z that we’re talking about now or whether we’re talking just in general? How does that work?

Emily Lyman
Yeah, so I’m really glad that you said that, because Gen Z as a whole, not only are they looking to influencers, but they themselves influence, hold a lot of influence. So, you know, a lot of people will come to me and they say, hey, why, if our target audience, it’s not really Gen Z, there are other generations, we can just target those, why do we really need to get all into the Gen Z, you know, zeitgeist, if you will. Gen. Z wields tremendous influence over every other generation, across not just what we buy, but how we live and what we believe. And this relationship is bi-directional. So Gen Z trusting businesses, they trust businesses more than any other institution. And they don’t just use it as a transaction. They use brands to express who they are connect with similar people and determine who they don’t share values with. So it goes it kind of goes both ways. And as when you come into your marketing, as you’re looking, you’re like, how do brands establish, first and foremost, their brand trust with others., Alot of that is through social media, a lot of that is through influencers. And a lot of that is what we’re going to be talking about at the panel, shameless plug, at the conference is what we like to call empathetic marketing. And so you use that to communicate your story, the values of your consumers, through all those different marketing touch points, and influencers is definitely one of them. A huge, a huge piece of them, I can go into a lot more percentages, and stats. I’m a stats nerd, I’m just gonna say that. But the social media and influencers are the two biggest ways that Gen Z interact with brands.

Joshua Tallent
Okay. And so that’s also how they interact with other other generations as well, because there’s so many influencers that are Gen Z, that has an impact, not just internally in that generation, but across the board.

Emily Lyman
Exactly. Yeah.

Joshua Tallent
Okay, that makes sense. So in the demographic differences, we’re looking at it like these different generations. Let’s talk about I guess a little bit more about the the brands that are trusted and how brands are trusted even. What about the difference like millennials and Gen Z? That’s kind of the center point here for a lot of marketing. What are the brands that are most trusted by those and how do they work?

Emily Lyman
So in terms of millennials, the cross actually Tiktok is one of the most trusted brands by Gen Z and millennials. So that’s where you get kind of a commonality, which says a lot, right, in terms of the next stage of brand trust, which is that it’s going farther than just your products. It’s now becoming a societal and a political issue. And that’s huge. But in terms of millennials right, then you get the Bitcoin. Meta WWE, actually. Red Bull. And, most surprisingly of all, Philip Morris. Yeah, and so then you turn to Gen Z. And they’re big fans of social media companies. TikTok leading the way, followed by like Snapchat, Spotify, Twitch, Discord, Instagram, surprisingly, Instagram was thought of separately from meta. Even though meta obviously owns Instagram, and then most trusted overall for everything is band-aid.

Joshua Tallent
Interesting. Okay. I have so many questions about this. So I wonder also, now we’re talking about the difference between two generations that are pretty right next to each other, right? Where were millennials 10 years ago? How does this change over time? And are we expecting. I don’t know if you could even talk about this, but I’m just curious. Can we expect Gen Z to change as well? I mean, going that direction toward Meta is kind of funny to me because I don’t even think of millennials as much on Facebook, necessarily. My grandmother is. My parents are, you know, my wife is but I guess technically she’s a millennial, so maybe that’s the case. But it’s kind of an interesting thing. I wouldn’t necessarily expect that movement. But I guess the question then becomes what’s going to happen 10 years from now and how do we keep up with that? When Gen Z is moving away from all. Every single one of the brands that you said they trust the most are online brands that are social media driven? Almost every single thing is social media for that. That’s got to change at some point. And if so, how? How do we keep up with that generation as it grows?

Emily Lyman
You know, I would say that first it actually doesn’t surprise me that millennials trust Meta, if you think about it. Facebook, millennials cut their teeth on Facebook, it was one of the first real social media platforms. And so many millennials, they may not. It depends. Their use may not be as up there as it used to be, but it is still very much a millennial platform. More so than Gen Z, or later generations, I should say. And so it doesn’t surprise me at all that that is that is on there. I think some Millennials have gone away from it, but a lot more are still, it’s still their home base, if you will. In terms of Gen Z changing in the next decade, I think that more generations, we stay the same more than we would think we would stay the same. And that’s kind of where Gen Z throws that monkey wrench in is because they have such influence over the generations, that’s then why you see that change happening, right? Gen Z has some of the most, you know, biggest political and societal influence of any other generation, and they’re not afraid to speak up about it. And I think that’s where you’ll see it changing is that I don’t think they’ll ever move away from the community and social media aspects. Maybe the companies, yes, but the touch points of what they expect from companies. For Gen Z, brands are how they use their voice. So that is not going to change even though the brands themselves might change.

Joshua Tallent
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. It’s interesting, because it’s essentially the values that they’re seeing in these companies and how they use the companies to express their own values, those two together, are going to keep them connected to any other platform, any other company, any other brand, that it allows them to see the same thing or do the same thing.

Emily Lyman
Exactly. Gen Z, what so many people have realized is they’re a tipping point right for, for action. We’re living in such a polarized social first world, and they just hold immense influence and gravitational pull. So brands are how they use their voice, and their choices and preferences of brands, they serve as a testament to their values and actions. But this also means that there’s such a high expectation of brands, right? And before you have the old adage of silence is golden. And brands could kind of pick and choose and be like, we’re not getting in the middle of this controversy or this conversation. But even if brands decide not to address a societal issue, or speak up on it to Gen Z, that means they are taking a stance. So now their silence works against them. And it has become a very fraught environment. Yeah. Because on one hand, you’re like, we don’t want brands to weigh in on every single thing. But then if they’re silent, that then conveys its own message.

Joshua Tallent
Interesting. Okay, so speaking of being silent on things, we’re going to talk about AI at the conference, there’s going to be a couple of sessions about it, including a group conversation. So I’m curious about how AI is having an impact on Gen Z. Obviously, they’re very online. They’re very much in social media. They’re seeing the impact. How is that impact affecting them?

Emily Lyman
Can I ask you a question? And answer honestly. Do you think that AI builds brand trust in Gen Z’s eyes or hurts it?

Joshua Tallent
Putting it back on me? Yeah, that’s great. I’m just gonna guess and this is just me pulling it out of my hat because I don’t know, obviously, the stats that I’m sure you have, but I suspect that it is actually hurting brand trust. Because in the end, if everything is about what I, as a Gen Z person, as what I think is valuable being expressed in a valuable way by a brand that I trust, I’m not going to trust that brand if they start whitewashing things, if they start using things that aren’t really honest, if they’re using something that doesn’t come from a truthful perspective, and AI could be seen that way. Not necessarily that it is. But that’s how it could definitely be seen.

Emily Lyman
I love it. And I’m sorry, I know, because I’m the one that holds all the cards in the information. I’m asking you to do this. But it’s interesting to me, because it’s an own kind of experiment on my end is how AI is first perceived by people. Because, actually, with Gen Z, AI has very much the potential to increase brand trust, when brands use it correctly. And I think this gets to the underlying issue of Gen Z expect brands to be transparent and truthful, about everything that they’re doing. So about their values, about their mission statement, if they made a mistake, why they’re doing what they’re doing. And AI is just another portion of that. They’re a very technological, you know, they’re a technological generation. And they like AI, they play with AI. And they want brands to do that and keep up with them. If the brands are very like, hey, this is what we’re doing with AI, we’re trying these new things, or we’re using this to make your life easier, rather than kind of a whitewash. But more of a we’re building out this AI journey to help your experience with the brand, much more seamless or even in some cases, honestly, much more personal.

Joshua Tallent
Yeah. That’s good. Yeah. And that question of how do we feel about AI is going to come up with a conference that will definitely be part of that broader conversation? Because publishing, you know, we’re still trying to figure it out. We don’t know in the publishing world what’s going to what’s going to really land and how to how to handle it and how to handle it well. I hear these conversations all the time at conferences, and it’s why we’re having the conversation at ours is that people are just trying to figure out what to do with it. And there’s obviously good that is there and valuable capabilities that are there. But you have to be careful about how you address it, not only internally, but also externally with your consumers.

Emily Lyman
I will say there’s a lot I’ve seen on social media and a lot of different publishing houses that have gotten into hot water for use of AI that are being called out by current readers, current book talkers, current influencers, etc. And what, to me, it stems from, I’m not going to, obviously, throw anybody under the bus or call out any names, but the main point it stems from in my perspective, is that the brand that was using AI in these situations were not truthful about it, and were trying to pass it off as not AI. And that’s where the current constituents and readers really get heated up about it.

Joshua Tallent
Yeah, it’s a breach of trust at that point, and you have to, you have to be very, like you said, visible, you know, transparent about these issues and where things are being used and how things are being used and how it impacts or affects the consumer in whatever way that it might. It might be that it doesn’t impact them at all. It’s just some behind the scenes stuff. But still being transparent is helpful to help them stay abreast of really whether they can trust you and should trust you.

Emily Lyman
Exactly. Because I would also say that more so as you’ve seen it kind of with millennials a little bit and then more so into indigency and later generations is this fierce protectiveness towards the individual artists or author, etc. People who are trying to create. Creators, essentially, right? You see that kind of from influencers who are content creators, and that fierce protectiveness of them and as it flows through into other industries, then especially the readers become very protective of their authors and their artists and their content creators and how they want the publishing houses to do right by them. And it’s always a two way street, right? There’s always gonna be both sides of the story. But it’s been fascinating to see just how essentially those on social medias and the current readers circle the wagons, if you will, if they perceive even a wiff of impropriety towards their creators.

Joshua Tallent
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, Emily, we’re out of time but this was a great conversation. I love it. And I think a great introduction to the concept of brand trust for those people who are interested in learning more, and they’re hopefully gonna come join us at the conference and hear the panel discussion and ask you lots of great questions, which I’m sure they will. Thank you so much for joining me. Where can people find you online? What are the things that you’re doing that you want to have people follow you?

Emily Lyman
Yes, please follow us on my agency Branch and Bramble. We are branchandbramble.com. Very long name. But I thought of that after I already created the website. And you can find me on LinkedIn. Emily Lyman is my profile on LinkedIn. Those are that’s the really the platform that I use the most.

Joshua Tallent
Awesome, and we’ll put links in the show notes. Thanks so much for joining me, and I’m looking forward to seeing you in September.

Emily Lyman
Thanks, Joshua. I appreciate it. And I also am so excited about September and looking forward to seeing everyone there.

Joshua Tallent
Awesome. Thanks for joining us for the BookSmarts Podcast. If you like what you’ve heard, please leave a review or rating on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to us. And also please share the podcast with your colleagues. If you have topic suggestions or feedback about the show, you can email me at Joshua@firebrandtech.com. Thanks for joining me and getting smarter about your books.